Terry,
I assume you are reading "Jesus for the Non-Religous" by John Shelby Spong - and chapter 10 (pages 107 to 115) in particular.
Or maybe pages 143ff of "Jesus: A Revolutionary" by John Dominic Crossan.
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
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52
Reports of Jesus' (death or resurrection) may have been later?
by Terry inconsider this possibility.
what if jesus' contemporaries, hanger's on, entourage, posse, disciples and apostles never gave a single thought at all.
to his having been raised from the dead?
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Book sealed to the learned but not to the unlearned.
by hoj inisa 29:11-12 and the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: and he saith, i cannot; for it is sealed: and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: and he saith, i am not learned.. another way of saying this is that the book is sealed to the one who has been taught, but not to the one who hasnt been taught.
the one who hasnt been taught just needs to be taught.. the things that we have been taught can keep us from understanding the bible.
any error in doctrines can keep us in error.
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Doug Mason
hoj,
Let's get back to basics.
As is pointed out, understand the immediate textual context as well as the context of the events (history, political, religious, etc.) that caused a passage to be written. "A text without a context is a pretext" otherwise its tail can be twisted any way you want.
These writers wanted to affect the beliefs and practices of their own immediate community; call it propaganda if you wish.
Remember also that only urban people (including scribes and possibly priests) could read and write, so we only know things from their point of view. Their opponents, the agrarian rural populace, was illiterate, so their views were not collected when the Scriptures were written. So we have a record from only one point of view.
None of these people was writing to you. Since they were writing to their own immediate audience, you need to climb into their culture, into their way of thinking.
Basically, the bulk of the OT writing was done over a relatively short period, say from Judah's Kings Hezekiah and Josiah down through the Exile, after which they were worked on and collated, likely by Ezra.
The book of Daniel is unrelated, so it does not bear on Isaiah (not even on the latter part of Isaiah that was written during the Babylonian Captivity). The book of Daniel was written some 400 years after the Babylonian Captivity. These 2nd century Jewish writers collected a raft of stories that they cobbled together into a book about an early (probably mythical) hero and thus produced stories designed to meet their immediate local need. In this instance, the Jewish people were being persecuted mercilessly and the stories of Daniel in a den of lions was a good parable for their contemporary situation (164 BCE). The book of Daniel needs to be read with these thoughts in mind.
For this reason, the writers of Daniel were not concerned at applying technical precision to history. Their histories were "written" for theological purposes ("historiography"). Thus the writers of Daniel made big mistakes; the original material that the writers of Daniel drew from had correctly linked with the history that said Nabonidus went mad; the writers of Daniel changed that to Nebuchadrezzar. The writers of Daniel said Jeremiah wrote of 70 years of desolations of the temple, where he said nothing of the sort. Daniel's authors got mixed up between Darius and Cyrus.
Another thing you could research is the evolutopn of Yahwistic monotheism. At what point in their history did the urban people accept a monotheist YHWH (while the rural populace maintained YHWH along with other deities, including his wife)?
Sorry to diverge well away from your issue, but I wanted to unblock the thinking. The Bible does not so much explain archaeology, rather it is itself an item of archaeology, a piece that reveals the culture of the community that created it.
Doug
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Why does Satan get to talk to God if they are real enemies?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inin the book of job, satan ( who is already the enemy of god) is talking to god about allowing him to torment job to prove a point on the real reason job and humans serve him.
they have a one on one conversation.. when you really think about it,why would god talk or even listen to satan if they are true enemies?.
being a witness for over 35 years,the wts made me fear satan and his demons.
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Doug Mason
John Kesler is spot on. Satan did not have the malevolence that he enjoys today.
Bible writers said that Judah and Israel were punished by GOD for their disobedience to his Laws and Commands. It is clearly stated that God employed human forces directly to carry out his punishment ("my servant Nebuchadrezzar", for example).
This idea that the ills which befall us are punishment carried out by God is still basic to the thinking of many modern Jews. My own 99-year old mother recently said that she must have been very bad because God was punishing her. Satan as a means of punishment does not enter her thinking.
Doug
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Comparison of the 2010 "generations" with previous WT declarations
by Doug Mason ini prepared a pdf that lists previous statements about the wts's "generations".. please let me know if there are any additional examples.. the file is at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/2010_change_to_generations.pdf .
doug.
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Doug Mason
Thanks,
I actually overlaid the images on the audio of part of the speech made available by Casabilas from the 2010 DC at Tuxcon (spelling?), with each image running at approximately 18 seconds. I wanted to provide the visuals as comments on the words being spoken. (Total run time is about 12 minutes 33 seconds.)
The finished picture and audio file (MPG format) runs to about 300 meg, so I gave that idea away. But if anyone wants to give it a go, I can make the original PowerPoint pictures available.
Doug
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Book sealed to the learned but not to the unlearned.
by hoj inisa 29:11-12 and the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: and he saith, i cannot; for it is sealed: and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: and he saith, i am not learned.. another way of saying this is that the book is sealed to the one who has been taught, but not to the one who hasnt been taught.
the one who hasnt been taught just needs to be taught.. the things that we have been taught can keep us from understanding the bible.
any error in doctrines can keep us in error.
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Doug Mason
hoj,
Please tell me who wrote this, when it was written, to whom, and what change did the writers intend for their immediate audience to make.
At the time this was originally written, communication by written means was limited to some of the urban populace, with great scepticism by the rural population of this novel means of communication. Is this fact ("I cannot read because I am not learned") relevant to your understanding of this passage?
Doug
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15
Comparison of the 2010 "generations" with previous WT declarations
by Doug Mason ini prepared a pdf that lists previous statements about the wts's "generations".. please let me know if there are any additional examples.. the file is at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/2010_change_to_generations.pdf .
doug.
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Doug Mason
Hi,
I prepared a PDF that lists previous statements about the WTS's "generations".
Please let me know if there are any additional examples.
The file is at:
http://www.jwstudies.com/2010_change_to_generations.pdf
Doug
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3
The GB's next "Generation" change
by Doug Mason ini see all the outrage about the "generation" change, but these changes have been going on all the time.
the gullible swallowed it before, so the gb probably reckoned they will lose only the weak ones anyway.. i have not read their excuse for the current position, so i can only go by the few comments i have read.
from those comments, i think the gb have either mismanaged the change or this is yet one more step in a long saga.. if i were the gb, my argument would have gone like this:.
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Doug Mason
I see all the outrage about the "generation" change, but these changes have been going on all the time. The gullible swallowed it before, so the GB probably reckoned they will lose only the weak ones anyway.
I have not read their excuse for the current position, so I can only go by the few comments I have read. From those comments, I think the GB have either mismanaged the change or this is yet one more step in a long saga.
If I were the GB, my argument would have gone like this:
(1) Jehovah God anointed Rutherford and his crew in 1919.
(2) When Rutherford died, the mantle passed on to his successors, just like the Apostolic Succession claimed by the Popes of the RC Church.
(3) Therefore the "generation" refers to this continuing passing on of the baton to the successive members of the GB.
(4) In turn, since the Governing Body represents the earthly FDS, this means that the members of the FDS (the Anointed who are on earth), share in the GB's "Apostolic Succession".
Maybe I should copyright my reasoning so they can't use it next time they need to make the change.
Doug
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It's not just 607 BCE
by Doug Mason inits not just 607 bce.. to prove that joseph rutherford was anointed by jehovah god in 1919 ce, the governing body of jehovahs witnesses needs to tick every one of the following boxes as proven without question.. o nebuchadnezzar did go mad for seven years.. o the fulfilment upon nebuchadnezzar was itself a prophecy.. o the length of each year that nebuchadnezzar experienced madness was a prophetic year of 360 days.. o the state of a heathen king symbolised the state of jehovahs kingdom.. o each day of nebuchadnezzars 2520 day madness predicted a 2520 year hiatus in the operation of jehovahs kingdom towards earth.. o this 2520 year hiatus commenced two months after jerusalem was destroyed, when jews entered egypt following the murder of gedaliah.. o the land remained depopulated until jews returned in 537 bce.. o even though the land was now holding people, the seventy years did not end until they dedicated the altar later in 537 bce.. o the land was totally devoid of human habitation and their beasts for over 70 (jewish) years.. o this identifies the date of the starting point of the kingdoms 2520-year hiatus, dating the event as 607 bce.. o the 2520 year hiatus in the operation of jehovahs kingdom government ended in october 1914 ce.. o the restart of jehovahs kingdom rule was proven through people on earth declaring war on one another slightly earlier in august 1914 (instead of 1914 ushering in peace under the zionists , as had been expected by russell).. o the setting up of this kingdom under davids descendant resulted in spirit resurrection of most of his co-rulers.. o the heavenly kingdom government then set about looking for its earthly representative.. o in 1919 ce, jehovahs government selected rutherford as that representative.. o about 1930, rutherford discovered that christs parousia had not taken place in 1874, and amended its date to 1914 ce.. o people on earth can tell that jehovahs kingdom has now started its operation towards earth because of the ravaging wars, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, and murderous, deceitful, evil people that are tearing at the earth.
the world was at peace before jehovahs kingdom began to rule.. o the governing body inherits the anointing given to rutherford..
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Doug Mason
It’s not just 607 BCE.
To prove that Joseph Rutherford was anointed by Jehovah God in 1919 CE, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses needs to tick every one of the following boxes as “proven without question”.
o Nebuchadnezzar did go mad for seven years.
o The fulfilment upon Nebuchadnezzar was itself a prophecy.
o The length of each year that Nebuchadnezzar experienced madness was a “prophetic year” of 360 days.
o The state of a heathen king symbolised the state of Jehovah’s kingdom.
o Each day of Nebuchadnezzar’s 2520 day madness predicted a 2520 year hiatus in the operation of Jehovah’s kingdom towards earth.
o This 2520 year hiatus commenced two months after Jerusalem was destroyed, when Jews entered Egypt following the murder of Gedaliah.
o The land remained depopulated until Jews returned in 537 BCE.
o Even though the land was now holding people, the “seventy years” did not end until they dedicated the altar later in 537 BCE.
o The land was totally devoid of human habitation and their beasts for over 70 (Jewish) years.
o This identifies the date of the starting point of the Kingdom’s 2520-year hiatus, dating the event as 607 BCE.
o The 2520 year hiatus in the operation of Jehovah’s kingdom government ended in October 1914 CE.
o The restart of Jehovah’s Kingdom rule was proven through people on earth declaring war on one another slightly earlier in August 1914 (instead of 1914 ushering in peace under the Zionists , as had been expected by Russell).
o The setting up of this Kingdom under David’s descendant resulted in spirit resurrection of most of his co-rulers.
o The heavenly Kingdom government then set about looking for its earthly representative.
o In 1919 CE, Jehovah’s government selected Rutherford as that representative.
o About 1930, Rutherford discovered that Christ’s parousia had not taken place in 1874, and amended its date to 1914 CE.
o People on earth can tell that Jehovah’s Kingdom has now started its operation towards earth because of the ravaging wars, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, and murderous, deceitful, evil people that are tearing at the earth. The world was at peace before Jehovah’s Kingdom began to rule.
o The Governing Body inherits the anointing given to Rutherford.
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You may not have read the Apologist version of 607 b.c.e.
by Terry injerusalem 607 bce vindicatedapostates and other opposers argue that jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 bce, but in 587 bce, and provide what they claim is archaeological evidence to support this.
read this chapter.... 5: servitude to the king of babylon for 70 years?.
read this chapter.... 9: the 70 years for tyre.
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Doug Mason
When I first read that material some months ago, I was so incensed at the outright distortions, misrepresentations and false reasoning that I set out to find who wrote this garbage. I am under the impression that "Third Witness" at another JW-discussion site could be responsible.
But do not bother entering into a discussion with that person - plays the man, not the issue.
I am most disappointed that it should be given such an airing at this place.
Doug
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The Bible: God's Word or Man's?
by Doug Mason inmy jw visitor left me a copy of the 2006 print of the book "the bible: god's word or man's?
", and i intend to provide him with my analysis of it.. i notice that the book was written in 1989, and the dates of the references suggest the book has not been updated since then.
am i correct?.
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Doug Mason
rufus,
I have access to several English translations of the Scriptures. That is not what I was seeking.
I wanted to see your 99% accurate copy of the original autographs, and I was most interested to see the original scrolls of Jeremiah and Deuteronomy. You definitely and positively stated that you have 99% accurate renderings of the original texts from Scripture, but now you admit that you don't.
My point regarding the textual accuracy of NT documents is that this accuracy does not show whether the document should be accorded the authority ascribed to it. The text of any document, Scriptural or profane, might be an accurate recording of the original but that accuracy of the content does not justify it is truly the word from God.
Doug